Disecting a monster - street by street, Deep Stacked Play Part 6

I recently came across a tasty deep stacked HH that I discussed quite a bit with Bruechips...I was really trying to figure out the best way to MAX out EV with my monster.  The beauty of this game is despite there only being 3 postfrop decisions - there are always so many different lines you can take for an individual hand.  Just yesterday I found a particular line that I have used 3x in 150k hands (you can prolly figured it out if you think about it...hint, i essentially had the nuts each time).    

This hand in particular got me thinking because by myself and the villain were ~300bb deep...and while the hand played out, my main focus was stacking him, obviously no easy feat unless you both hold monsters.  

Let's check it out...

Full Tilt Poker $3/$6 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BB: $686.00
UTG: $1206.25
UTG+1: $526.50
MP1: $1111.20
MP2: $600.00
Hero (CO): $1729.20
BTN: $2417.05
SB: $600.00

Pre Flop: ($9.00) Hero is CO with 8 8
UTG calls $6, 3 folds, Hero raises to $24, BTN calls $24, 2 folds, UTG calls $18
(Folks - we have a donk alert...UTG limper.  Let's stuff some money in the pot while we are in position and make a standard raise with snowmen.  B calls...as does UTG.  My read at the time was that UTG is a donk and the B is a pretty tight reg.  My image at the table is definitely on the looser side as usual - althought I haven't been showing down much.  

Flop: ($81.00) 8 A 6 (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $60, BTN calls $60, UTG folds
Make a standard C bet here, with this board texture (board is nice and dry, unlike tiffany's mom's vagina on two for tuesdays!)  given with 3 way action - I'm making a cbet somewhere in the hood of 90% of the time.  Once UTG folds out and I am left out of position vs the button...I know that I have the NUTS and that the villain is VERY likely to have a Ax type hand.  He would have 3b AA this deep for sure.  79, 57 are the only draw combinations - and despite being deep, I don't think the villain would call with these types of hands.  

Turn: ($201.00) 3 (2 players)
Hero requests TIME, Hero bets $168, BTN calls $168

Clearly the 3 is literally the best card in the deck for me that doesn't improve my hand.  I really REALLY debated overbetting the turn here in order to get more money in the pot.  

River: ($537.00) K (2 players)
Hero requests TIME, Hero bets $477, BTN requests TIME, BTN calls $477
Clearly another big bet is in order, I still have the effective nuts...BTN tanks it HARD and finally calls it off with top 2.  

Final Pot: $1491.00

Hero shows 8 8 (three of a kind, Eights)
BTN mucks K A
Hero wins $1488.00

Where was the turning point in this hand?  It was ALL about the turn baby.  I COULD have opted for a turn XR here in an effort to setup a river shove given the stax...but as Bruechips mentioned during our discussion - this is CRIMINAL.  Two major league bad things can happen here, you can xr him off a strong hand you have him drawing dead with or the nightmare scenario...HE CHECKS behind.  If he checks behind and then put in a river bet, we play a 550 dollar pot vs the 1500 one we played.  Super ghey.

My other alternative was turn overbet.  Given his hand...I'm not sure him or anyone else would just fold there.  Granted I didn't know he backdoored the NFD...but still, how often do you see someone overbet the turn?  I'm pretty sure he peels even without the FD.  If I am able to dump like 250 in on the turn...it ends up allowing me to play a pot that is roughly 25% larger than the pot size as played.  

This guy sure is lucky he didn't 3b his AK here...surely I go minining this deep and we DEFINITELY would have played a nice lil monsterpotten.  

Deep Stacked Play - Part 5

I really love me some deep stacked play...and lately I have been making a concerted effort to play these tables exclusively in an effort to cut down my variance.

Speaking of variance...I've thought a bit about this topic and as far as poker goes, I think there are actually three types of variance. All in variance, prefrop card variance, postfrop card variance. The first is obviously the only one that can be controlled...as long as you are never all in, you can not be affected by this type of "luck." As far as the other two, you obviously can not control the cards you are dealt or board. Some people will invevitably get dealt better hands over the short term or wind up hitting more than their share of flushes and sets. My solution to this...play more hands :) While over the short term your winnings can be greatly affected by preflop and postflop variance...given a large sample (100k+), these two types of variance should converge towards an equilibrium amongst the player pool.

Enough theory stuff (generally I leave that to Bruechips as he has a much better grasp/understanding of it and does a better job explaining it), onto a relatively interesting hand that involved a bit of meta game in a deep 5/10. Check it out...

Action packed prefrop action huh? I know Bruechips thinks this type of play is pretty standard for me...the 5b min bluff is not exactly something I have comfortably worked into my repoirtoire, ROR. Let me try to explain a bit of my thought process...

I was fortunate enough to get the seat to the left of the fish who was generating all the action at the table...and chose to 3b him IP. Now when the blind comes over the top of me for a hefty raise...and in the midst of multitabling, I hoover my mouse over the fold button and suddenly freeze. I think to myself..."I may have the best hand here" - ROR, just kidding.

First off, the blind is a decent player and we have tanlged a bit in the past...but this is the first pot we are squaring off in for the sesh. I really began to think there was a chance that he was 4b'ing me light cold from the blinds since I knew the donk was opening light from LP and I would 3b light from the CO. It's a great spot to do it and Slanksky says it best when he stated "figured out what yer opponent wants you to do and disapoint them." Well he was trying to disapoint me, so I mulled over redisapointing (is that a word) him a la the old 5b bruff, ROR. Two other reasons I felt it was a good spot were a) we were deep and I could comfortably fold to a 6b and b) his raise sizing seemed a bit largish...almost as if he didn't want me in the pot.

After I drop the min 5b bomb on him and he calls and x's to me, he's folding EVERYTHING in his 5b calling range but pocket 5's (I guess AK and KK could be a piece of this range, but he'd prolly go with KK pre). I really could not have asked for a better flop (without hitting my hand)...so here's to me and my postfrop card variance. Cheers FT RNG!

-BRACKCHIPS

Relating to the first part of the post, another kind of variance would be strategic uncertainty. That is, if players are randomizing over different actions sometimes, then sometimes you'll get "lucky" in the sense that either you or your opponent will make a play that works out for you, and other times you'll get "unlucky" and make a play that's wrong ex post. For example in a situation like this one, Andrew is randomizing over check/calling and check/folding, while the villain is randomizing over shoving and checking behind. Andrew gets "lucky" when he check/calls or check/folds and the villain checks behind, very "lucky" when he check/calls and the villain shoves, and "unlucky" when he check/folds and the villain shoves.

Like the other kinds of luck, this one evens out over a large sample size. That's pretty much the definition of luck, is that it's random over all the players and doesn't favor one player over another in any systematic way.

As for the hand review part of the post, PWND!

-BRUECHIPS

Deep Stacked Play - Part 4, Brack is Beautiful - Part 15

As you can tell from the title above...this hand fits into a few categories, check it out.



Preflop my open is def a BIT roose, but I rike to mix up my UTG opening range with sooted connectors.

The SB 3bs me…and the first thing that comes to mind…AA or KK. This villain is one of the nittiest regulars at this level, and his range is incredibly polarized to just these two hands. My thoughts are when facing the 3b, call or fold. A combination of factors went into my decision to call here…the raise size is NOT pricing me out enough this deep, especially since I have position. If he makes it in the 55ish+ neighborhood, I’m going to be folding much more often. We are 200bbs deep…I’m getting great implied odds, that coupled with the fact that my hand is very well disguised, I opted to see a frop.

Pretty much a dream frop for me, pair and a FD. When playing 100bbs deep vs most other villains…I’m looking to get money in on this frop. I can honestly say that I would be raising this frop 95% of the time, looking to fold out better hands...and gamble with big made hands. But in this SPECIFIC spot, 200bbs deep vs a supernit…calling is the best line here. If the villain has AA or KK...he’s not folding! I need to wait for spades to come in on the turn, see if I can turn trips/2 pair (which obviously are no good vs top set). His c bet is so weak…again I’m getting great odds to call, thanks for making it so cheap!

So my money card rolls off on the turn…and this where its time to go to valuetown. I bet BIG, large enough that if he xc’s…I will have a little less than a pottish sized bet so I can do my favorite thing in NLHE…SHOVE. LOL.

He checkraises me arr in and boom we get it in for 200bbs…I fought off the boat redraw and raked a monsterpotten.

Deep Stacked Play - Part 3, final comments

So there has been some interest in this hand...I think Bruechips did a great job in breaking down the math along with villain's ranges at a very granular level. For some of you - this might be a bit too much, but I highly suggest those of you who are serious about your game to at least attempt to understand it...I can assure you this kind of detailed analysis is not easy to come by.

As for the results of the hand - see below...




So I luckboxed my way into a monsterpotten...not a bad thing. My thoughts on my flop ship were as follows:

a) BB is folding about EVERY time, AKdd MIGHT call...but calling off a 200bb stack with two overs a NFD is a little fishy. BB is a very tight player...definitely capable of making a laydown.
b) A large part of my reasoning for shipping was that I incorrectly thought I had 10 clean outs vs MP.
c) MP was largely unknown and while he's obviously not folding 9T (which makes up a fraction of his range), I felt that he could fold most two pair combinations, JJ-QQ, diamond draws, and possibly even 666.
d) I did not have much information on MP, and despite being in position vs him, if I just call...there are plenty of turn cards that will either kill the action, or make my decision very tough on the turn. I really did not think I could play further streets optimally.
e) Finally - since in my mind folding/shipping were the only two options...i felt that folding was a bit ghey. I try to keep that adjective out of my arsenal when it comes to my poker play.

Well this ended up being a mini series on deepstacked play...hope ya'll enjoyed it!

-BRACKCHIPS

Arso, for those of you out there wondering, Brackchips def does NOT keep gheyness out of his arsenar away from the fert. Seriousry, he rikes it in the butt more than any other dude I know. Not as much as Tiffany's mom rikes it though. She wirr actuarry beg for it.

-BRUECHIPS

Deep Stacked Play - Part 2

When you are playing with deep stacks (200bb+) - the value of one pair hands goes way down. Position becomes much more important and cards that can extract implied odds (pp's, sooted connectors) go up in value.

In the hand above I limped treys up front...this is a bit weak and transparent to many solid players, but my read on the LP players were they were not aggressive in blind stealing - thus I felt I could profitabry set mine in this situation.

When the BB pops (standard TAG player), I opt to call and see a flop. Before I get into a quick hand analysis, I will preface this with the fact that I hand tangled quite a bit with the BB on several other hands. I had been getting the better of him (mostly bc I had position on him) and I felt as if he was at the pt where he was fed up. This happens ALL the time to anyone with ANY competitive spirit - you continue to tangle with the same villain, and then you end up getting fed up with their raises. Word to the wise - unless you have position...FIND ANOTHER TABLE! Unless you are playing absurdly high stakes there are PLENTY of other tabres...find another seat! Its -EV to your tirt factor and your bankroll to stay seated. Part of the beauty of online poker - you can immediately find another game/seat no probremo!

GIN motherfawker! I raise his cbet an extra healthy amount since we are deep and he opts to 3b me. Hmmm...lets put him on a hand range here - its rearry polarized to a overpair. He can't be bluffing putting in half his stack here, he COULDDD have top set but I'm going broke here - ship it.

Losing 200bb's with ONE PAIR is the nut low. WTF did the bb put me on? He could only beat a bluff, and TT-QQ (I'm open raising those hands)...there are ZERO draws on the flop and no two pair combinations that are in my range.

-BRACKCHIPS

First of arr, who are you and why are you posting on my brog? OK, just kidding, thanks for your first post in 3 weeks ROR...about this hand...tough from this guy's prespective. I agree it's a bad pray, but he could be thinking "this bastard rimped and thinks I have air just because I raised his rimp from the bb and c-bet this nothing frop - but I've got kings mofo!!". It's a spot where he's at the top of HIS range in that spot - he would normally have A-high and lay it down. But I think he kind of confuses that with being ahead of YOUR range, which is the relevant question. I don't think he has to fold to your frop raise (arthough I think if you had an unimproved mid-smarr pp, or comprete air, you would probabry froat instead of raise), but I don't rike the 3-bet. Except perhaps if he's going to ford to a shove, and in that case his 3-bet should be smarrer. But there's no hand he's getting varue out of by raising, given that you rimped pf. Just carring you raise and hoping you bruff on the turn would be a better way to stack off, if stacking off is his pran on this frop.

BRUECHIPS

Deep Stacked Play - Part 1

The majority of online cash games are capped with a 100bb buyin - thus you rarely find yourself in deep stacked situations (200bb+) unless you and another villain have been sitting together and built up your stacks. Always be aware of a villain's stack size relative to yours...it can dictate both pre and post flop strategy.

Personally I feel as if most online players (including myself) do not have that much experience playing deep stacked poker and thus may shy away from tough/marginal spots out of position. The game dynamic changes quite a bit when deep stacked...implied odds go up and both position/EV of decisions on individual streets is accentuated because players may often have enough money to play the hand out to the river without having to go all in. Recently made it a point to put pressure on opponents when I have position with deep stacks. Check out the HH below from a recent deep stacked game.

Full Tilt Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

CO: $89
Hero (BTN): $986.40
SB: $1,648
BB: $452.90
UTG: $96
UTG+1: $337.60
UTG+2: $888
MP1: $410
MP2: $483.10

Pre-Flop: dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, UTG+2 raises to $14, 3 folds, Hero raises to $50, SB calls $48, 2 folds

Flop: ($118) (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $100, SB raises to $256, Hero calls $156

Turn: ($630) [ ] (2 Players)
SB bets $1,342 and is All-In, Hero calls $680.40 and is All-In

River: ($1,990.80) [ ] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $1,990.80 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed (a Royal Flush) and WON $1,987.80 (+$1,001.40 NET)
SB showed (three of a kind, Queens) and LOST (-$986.40 NET)


Preflop Analysis - The UTG+2 is actually a relatively tight player, but I decided to put some pressure on him with deep stacks and see how he would react. Much to my suprise, the SB (loose passive player) flat calls and UTG+2 folds. Didn't have much of a read on SB, his range here is a pocket pair...maybe 99-QQ?

Flop Analysis - Not a bad flop for me here, a OESFD. Not exactly sure I can ever fold J high in this spot. I get checked raised small and am CERTAIN the SB has a Q. Probably a KQ or QJ type hand. I eliminated QT from his range because I just do not see him CR'ing with a boat. RIght now I am confident that my all of my OESD and FD cards are live. Playing 100bb's deep I usually would just jam here, but we are deep and he is never folding a Q to a shove. I have position, so let's see a turn card.

Turn Analysis - not a bad turn card...turning a straight frushhhhhh! Before I am able to devise a plan to put all the money in over two streets he insta ships it!!!

River Analysis - how about adding some insult to injury, maybe my 3rd ROYAL FRUSH in 500k hands. It sure is nice getting paid with it!

SB's play here PF and on the turn is just TERRRRIBLE. Calling OOP to someone who has 3b a UTG+2 PFR with a one gapper is definitely questionble. The CR on the flop was fine, but he didn't price me out of ANYTHING - gave me 3-1! The turn SHOVE was pretty silly, it is a spot where he is likely ONLY going to get called by a boat or a flush (both of which have him beat).

BRACKCHIPS

Sorid post. Rike it. For those of you looking for the Cliff's Notes version of Brackchips's Guide to Deep-Stacked Play:

Problem: Playing deep-stacked is difficult, most regulars aren't good at it.
Solution: Turn the stone-cold nuts vs. a donkey with trips!!!

FWIW, I'm steadfastly against the call of the check-raise on the flop. I think 'eliminating' hands from a player's range and assuming he would NEVER do something with a certain hand (in this case, a flopped boat) is a bad idea. Furthermore, even if he does have just a Q, you don't know what his kicker is, which means that you could end up shipping in a whore rot of money drawing dead. For instance, what if the turn here is the Ac, and he shoves? Or the Kh? He could also have a bigger draw than you, like AcKc.

BRUECHIPS