Many thanks to Gnome for the first non-Fuel comment on our brog in a whire. I thought it might be a revisit the thoughts I had on check-raising to which Gnome was responding. My first point, which I should have made more clear in my first post, is that if you're check-raising all the time, it means you're playing out of position all the time, which is bad for your bankroll, unless you're way better at poker than I am, which Gnome probably is. But for the break-even to losing player, in my opinion, the FIRST thing you should do if you want to try and become a winning player is to stop limp-calling, and stop calling pre-frop raises out of the blinds. Entirely. Don't set mine. Don't try and hit big frops with suited connectors. Just stop playing pots out of position without the betting lead.
I think players sometimes see my raising a lot before the frop, decide that I must be bluffing some of the time, so they'll call and check-raise my inevitable c-bet, and I've gotta fold, because I can't have something every time, right? Well, sure, you will win my PFR and c-bet some of the time, but sometimes this will happen to you and you're not gonna like it:
Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
SB: $159.85
BB: $205.70
UTG: $40
UTG+1: $14
Hero (UTG+2): $216.85
MP1: $227.25
MP2: $205.50
CO: $34
BTN: $200
Pre-Flop: 
dealt to Hero (UTG+2)
2 folds, Hero raises to $8, 4 folds, SB calls $7, BB folds
Flop: ($18) 
(2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $15, SB raises to $45, Hero raises to $208.85 and is All-In, SB folds
Results: $108 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero mucked and WON $105 (+$52 NET)
So this donk probably had KT or some hand like that. By playing it this way, he has turned his hand into a complete bluff. I'm very rarely going to be flat calling this bet with a hand that's worse than his. I might just call with AK and ship any non-club turn, but he's not gonna get value out of A8 or QQ or something. If you're gonna fold to a re-raise, and your hand is no good whenever called, well...that's pretty much the definition of a bluff, right? He might as well have 93o if he's gonna play KT this way.
One clear problem, highlighted by this hand, is that often when donks check-raise they have no plan for the rest of the hand. When you check-raise, you should have an idea of what you're gonna do if re-raised, and what your plan is if you're flat called. As I discussed in my first post on check-raising, usually playing the rest of the hand is pretty tough if it doesn't end after you check-raise. On that note, I'd like to add a couple more situations where I like the check-raise, on top of the multi-way pot with a big hand: 1) the pot is big enough that your check-raise can be a shove, and 2) (usually a subset of 1)) you check-raise the turn after c-betting the frop and getting carred. If you're in situation 1), you don't have to worry about how to play the rest of the hand. You're done with it. In situation 2), you have to do this some of the time to combat and get value from players floating your c-bets with air. A good mix of double-barreling and check-raising the turn is necessary to foil the floater.
So the weapon of the check-raise is not going to make consistently playing out of position vs. a pre-flop raiser profitable. Obviously you're not going to be folding every hand out of position. If you're dealt AA, you might want to think about putting some chips into the pot. My usual strategy is to grab back the betting lead and go ahead and re-raise pre-frop. I do it whether I have AA or JTs. I almost never just call HU from the brinds with KQs or its ilk. I will often be folding it, even though it may be well ahead of the range of a late position raiser, simply because it's very difficult to play poker when you have a mediocre hand, you're out of position, and you don't have the betting lead. If Gnome can comment on how to make this situation more profitable, I would love to listen.
If I do end up heads-up out of position, I prefer a mix of leading out and check-calling. When strong, leading out risks your villain folding and you not getting the c-bet you might have won if you had check-raised, but it will often result in the villain raising (after all, he raised before the flop, he should have a hand, right?), which is good for you if you've got the goods. Or if you have a big draw and you wouldn't mind a race, you can re-raise over the top, and if you get a fold, you've won a big portion of your opponent's stack without having to go to showdown or even letting him see the turn. A check-call I usually reserve for mediocre made hands and total air, especially vs. a villain who I know will check behind the turn if he was c-betting A-high and doesn't improve. This allows me to lead the river if it's a blank. It's kind of like a delayed check-raise, except it's done with better information that my bluff will be successful: I've seen him check behind the turn.
Gnome also asked, if you ARE going to check-raise, should it be done as a bluff or for value...I think there the answer is pretty obvious, it has to be both to balance your range. If you're up against an aggressive player, I think you can shade more towards bluffs, because you're probably going to get a fold or a reshove. That means that when you're strong, you'll get a whole stack in, hopefully as a 2:1 favorite or better, and when you're bluffing, you'll be informed immediately and lose only the amount of the check-raise.
BRUECHIPS
Episode 454: Jessica Vierling
1 week ago
5 comments:
Stacks are deep - MP raises to 3BB and you call with 77 from the BB. Flop is Q43r. You check, he bets, you checkraise - bluff or value?
You have turned your hand into a bluff.
I say value. Your 77 is ahead of your opponent's range, and a check-raise is effective because it intends to end the hand right there without seeing a turn that 77 is vulnerable to. If you lead out that flop, all kinds of worse hands will float or raise you.
This leads us into the murky territory of information bets, which aren't neatly defined into the categories of value bets or bluffs. I suppose an information bet is a kind of semibluff, halfway in between the two.
To me, this is a misconception about value bets. A value bet is not a bet that you make when you're ahead of your opponent's range. It's a bet you make when you're ahead of your opponent's CALLING range. When you value bet, you WANT to get called.
Of course 77 is vulnerable to a turn card, but you don't want to get called in this spot. You really think you're going to be able to extract value even if your opponent calls with AK? He might call to bluff you later, and he will probably be successful. You're trying to end the hand, which would be your goal if you had T9s as well. If you're playing the hand this way, 77 is no different from T9s, except 77 has two outs against some of the hands it's behind to.
In regards to raising for information, you might be thinking, well, I'd rather raise now than check and put in the same amount of money on the turn without the betting lead. Valid point, but: 1) your opponent might not bet if you check the turn, 2) the turn might improve your hand (in this case, maybe give you an inside straight draw to go along with your pair), and 3) you have controlled pot size, not giving your opponent the opportunity to shove over the top, and 4) the second barrel gives you information too, maybe more, and it's much less costly (you see that he's fired before you have to put in the additional money, whereas check-raising for information costs the amount of the raise).
Good players will often fire a second barrel with air on a dry board like this one, putting you on a hand like 77. That puts you in a rough spot. You can either decide to call down very light, or you can just go ahead and pitch it on the flop. This is not a bad play, EVEN IF YOU KNOW YOU'RE AHEAD OF YOUR OPPONENT'S RANGE. The reverse implied odds are such that even if you are ahead most of the time, there's a great chance you'll get bluffed, get drawn out on, or get shown a better hand in the bigger pots, whereas the pots you win will likely be the smaller ones.
Great point about value betting being bets that are ahead of your opponent's calling range.
I've come around to your way of thinking that the check-raise with 77 turns your hand into a bluff, which is quite alright. After the check-raise, your 77 has very little showdown value because you probably don't want to put any more bets into the pot.
It makes me think I should be check-raise bluffing a lot more as a one-street bluff.
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