March 10, 2009

High Stakes Poker Season 5 Recap, Episodes 1-2

Well, we're only two episodes into season 5 of High Stakes Poker on GSN, and so far it's been the Tom Dwan Show. The guy is unreal. How is it that everybody turns into a donkey when they're playing against durrrr? Peter Eastgate puts in zero raises when his trips outkick Dwan's. David Benyamine gets one street of value when his JT flops top two against Dwan's KJ. Ziigimund loses of nearly 100 bbs with A3o on a AcJcTd7c5s board. Eli Elezra cold calls 3 bets out of position with AJo, then check-calls a decent sized turn bet with A-high no pair no draw. If God crapped out a poker player, it would be Tom Dwan.

The most breathtaking hand of the second episode came at the end. Barry Greenstein opens from UTG with pocket aces and gets approximately 87 callers, including durrrr (I think UTG+1) with QcTc and Peter Eastgate in the SB with 24o. The flop comes Td2c2s, giving Greenstein an overpair, Eastgate trip deuces, and durrrr top pair third kicker.

The pot has about $21k in it, and the blinds check to Greenstein, who bets $10k. With the stacks this deep (not sure about Barry, but apparently Eastgate has $500k on the table and Dwan probably has him covered), durrrr can really put a lot of pressure on Barry, since durrrr could have TT or a deuce, and Barry can only have TT. Since durrrr has a T in his hand, he knows it's even more unlikely Barry would have top boat. And he's pretty sure that with anything less than that, Barry will not want to put in $500k. I think he likes the T in his hand not for its value, although I guess it does give him a two-outter, but because it reduces the TT combos Barry could have from 3 to 1.

Of course it's possible that someone else has a deuce but durrrr is willing to take that risk in order to start building a pot now and get heads up with Barry for later streets. So he raises to $37k, I'm sure hoping it folds back to Barry. I almost think durrrr is hoping Barry calls so he can win an even juicier pot when he shoves his stack in on the river and Barry folds, but he wouldn't mind a fold either. What he didn't want was a call or raise from some other player. Unless that player was Peter Eastgate calling from the SB. It was pretty apparent from Eastgate's relative tightness preflop, his flat call on the river with nut trips and his fold to Daniel Negreanu's river raise (turned out to be a good fold) earlier in the session that Eastgate was somewhat scared money. Also durrrr has position on Eastgate, whereas he wouldn't if he had gotten a call from Ziigimund or Negreanu. So when it folds to Eastgate, he calls, and Barry calls, durrrr knows exactly what they both have. Eastgate is not calling there with a better T or even JJ. And if he had a better deuce, he'd probably re-raise. Why Barry calls I have no idea. It's pretty obvious at least Eastgate has him pwnd, if durrrr doesn't. And even if he has the best hand, what's his plan for later streets? He's hoping that something OTHER than durrrr putting in $100k on the turn will happen? Uhhhh....Barry, lemme introduce you to this guy Tom Dwan. Who knows that your UTG raise and bet/call on a T22r board means overpair and overpair only. Pay attention, because he is about to rape you.

After they all call, the turn is a 7d. Eastgate and Greenstein both check. Dwan bets $104k into the $133k pot. Both players probably realize that $300-400k more is coming on the river. Dwan scares out the scared money as Eastgate pitches the best hand. Barry folds the second best hand since he realizes durrrr knows what he has and he has no idea what durrrr has. Dwan mucks the third best hand and rakes the monsterpotten.


(Update: Barry Greenstein discusses the hand in his pokerroad radio show here. I think his comments are pretty consistent with mine. He talks about both his flop call and his turn fold in depth. Definitely worth a listen.)

While durrrr has dominated, I've been pretty unimpressed with Daniel Negreanu's cash game. With the disclaimer that he has way more experience and success playing poker than I ever will...wtf is he doing limp/calling Q4s and J2s??? I know it's a deep cash game...but it's not like he's playing a bunch of donkeys he can just pwn post-flop every hand. He's got Tom Dwan somewhere to his left, who will absolutely murder him if he keeps up the limping donkery. Even when he did open limp/call the button with Jh2h (apparently he's been taking lessons from every NL50 donk out there) and got the miracle flop of K22 vs. AK, he won basically the minimum by slowplaying. He seemed to have gotten the picture a little bit by the end of the second episode. It'll be interesting to see how he adapts.

Ziigimund has gotten pwnd so far, but I don't think he has played terribly. He raised durrrr's c-bet on a Q32r board with 63o...not a bad play necessarily, but he happened to run into bottom set. His calldown with 99 on a AsJc6c4hJs board looks pretty bad, but he was probably thinking that Eastgate wouldn't be good enough to value bet a J on the turn or an A on the river, which leaves a full house (and even then he probably raises AJ or 66 on this flop) and missed flush draws, which means Ziig can call with 99 there. I think a better play (easy for me to say, seeing the hands) would be to check-raise the turn. I think Eastgate would bet/fold a weaker ace there like AT, maybe his flush draws, and it looks like his jacks. I doubt he'd call a raise to 70 or so with his JTs. Since they are plenty deep, he might call with his flush draws, but I don't think he'd re-raise them. Ziig can easily represent all the sets on board himself. He also lost a bunch of money when he 3-b durrrr's KQs with A3o. Durrrr flopped Broadway and incredibly checked three times, and then raised the river, even with three clubs on board. How can he know that Ziig checked top pair on the flop and turn and will call down on the river?? While it seems like Ziig should be tempted to call here, since durrrr could be bluffing just based on the fact that Ziig checked the flop and turn, I think Ziig's checks represent more of a hand than a bet would. On a board like that, he could easily have AQ or AK and be checking for pot control, whereas if he had pocket fours he's probably going to take a stab on the flop since he can rep some monsters.

Anyway, this post has gotten plenty long already so I'll wrap it up...but I'm definitely looking forward to seeing the rest of the episodes this season.

-BRUECHIPS

Ok now its my turn to jump on durrr's nuts.  I think Brue pointed out all the earlier hands where either max valued with big hands or lost the minimum with medium stength hands.  

But let's jump right into THE 24/AA/QT hand.  That hand was EPIC in every sense of the word.  durrr had a plan from the start - to make Barry fold an overpair.  He was going to put apply max pressure in position and convince him that he either had a deuce or ten's full.  I think his raise sizing was pretty dirty...it allowed him to determine if someone had a deuce SUPER CHEAP and verify that Barry's holdings were indeed an overpair.  When Eastgate gets in the way of durrr's original plan, he simply thinks another level ahead - and uses Barry's knowledge of Eastgate's holdings against him.  On the turn, he basically uses Eastgate as a pawn against Barry.  He knows Eastgate has a weakish deuce and Barry should know this...durrr knows that Barry knows that he knows.  So he knows the move is PWN with a 104k bet on the turn and make Barry fold.  SHIP IT.  

I've watched the clip numerous times now and a few things I've noticed...

- postflop, both Barry and Eastgate appear to be on autopilot...none of their decisions take more than 10 seconds other than when Barry finally folds.  Seriously guys...are you kidding me?  Did you just insta give up when durrr raised the frop?  I know you guys are pretty effing rich but still...this ain't chump change ya'll are playing with.  C'mon.  Durrr spends about 40 seconds carefully planning his strategy when he puts in his frop raise.  I'm pretty sure he figured out all the potential actions and how he was going to react vs them depending on the player/situation/etc.  
- Eastgate definitely bought in for too much and was uncomfortable playing that deep.  Barry mentions in his audio commentary that online players are uncomfortably playing super deep and he's correct.  Durrr recognized this in a previous hand when he missed a river value raise with trips when he had durrr outkicked.  I honestly don't know what cash game stakes Eastgate plays online, but I'm pretty sure he's not a high stakes regular.  Granted he just won many a mirrions of dollars...but i wouldn't go sit with 500k at a table with some of the best players in the world.  
- Barry mentioned in his clip that he had only played a few times with durrr about a year ago and knew he was very loose but was not sure if he had changed much since then.  No offense to Barry cuz he's the man, but dude you might want to chat with yer boy Ivey who plays him pretty regularly.  Its not a freak occurence for them to dust off north of 500k in a day.  Dusting off 500k+ and TAG do not exactly fit into the same sentence, ROR.  
- The commentators during the show mention a Stu Unger reference in regards to the move that durrr puts on in this hand...boy that woulda been a sick matchup.  

What I would have LIKED to have seen...was for another player to realize what durrr was doing and to subsequently 3b the flop.  Regardless of who it was or what cards they had...surely they would have gotten folds around and raked a TASTY pot without a showdown.  

 - BRACKCHIPS

8 comments:

The Poker Meister said...

GREAT post! I was waiting for one of the bloggers to comment on the Greenstien/Dwan/Eastgate hand. I think you have provided an excellent analysis.

I remember coming away from that show shaking my head... and thinking Dwan was a totally reckless donkey from that hand. That said, I will admit that I am far below you, Fuel, Gnome, etc. skill level with regard to poker, and, based on your analysis, understand the hand a LOT better.

The question I have is this: is Dwan constantly thinking on this level? Clearly, he was FAR above the level of Greenstein and Eastgate. Since I'm on a different skill level than both of them (and you bloggers), the thought that's going through my head is the same as Barry's: why raise for information here (on the flop) when I'm pretty certain I'm good? Additionally, I'm thinking why is Dwan pressing so hard? My donk-self would be calling, but then again, I'm not playing with $500K+ stacks.

spritpot said...

Hi Poker Meister,

Thanks for reading and thanks for the comment.

Do you mean why is durrrr raising for information? It's a spot where Dwan doesn't really need to raise for information because Barry's UTG pre-flop raise and 1/2 pot c-bet into 8 players already gives him so much information about Barry's hand that spending an extra $27.5k to get more wouldn't be worth it (in general, raising for information is rarely worth it in my view but it certainly is not here). His raise is not for information, it's a bluff (which apparently would not have worked, Barry says now, were it not for Eastgate getting in the middle and making durrrr's turn bet more credible and also larger).

The reason he's pressing so hard is that he would play a deuce or tens full the exact same way (as Barry admits in his radio show), because they are so deep. It would be hard for him to get $500k in the pot, or even the $230k that Barry has in his stack, without raising the flop (Negreanu didn't get this memo though, he just called flop and turn with J2s when the flop came K22 vs. Eastgate's AK).

If the board were slightly different...say it was Td8s2c, durrrr might have just called because the 8s gives him a backdoor straight draw to go with his backdoor club draw and now a Q puts him ahead of an overpair, whereas with a T22Q board AA still beats QT, and because it's harder to represent a big hand on T82r, because you can only represent sets or maybe T8s, whereas on T22 you can rep any hand with a deuce in it.

-bruechips

The Poker Meister said...

Agreed with your thoughts on T82r or even Td8s2c. I guess ultimately, there were a few problems on this hand - all stemming from Barry. UTG, he should have been limping or raising quite a bit larger. A limp from UTG from Barry, looks like he has a monster, given Barry's past performance. A strong raise probably sends your customers away and you collect blinds / antes. Either way, he bet out to get them a little pregnant; a weak-ass bet from UTG.

That said, if I'm Barry, I'm forced to put Dwan on A2s, or 23s on the flop. Pre-flop, he's UTG+1 with a host of players ahead of him to call and/or raise. You have to believe that if he had TT, he's going to re-raise PF (or maybe this is an incorrect assumption). I'm assuming TT is not a real possibility here for that reason (i.e. no re-raise).

Reality is that Barry probably narrows Dwan down to A2, which is a pretty loose call in and of itself. Barry is holding AhAc, which negates 3 portions of that hand; Dwan can't have Ah2h, Ac2c. He also can't have As2s - so we're narrowed down to one hand: Ad2d? FYI: The reason I rule out A2o is because with UTG+1 PF, I have to figure there are WAY better aces calling PF and I'm not going to get into a situation where a naked A hits and I'm folding; the risk/reward is not positive there.

So, as Barry, the only hand I can put Dwan on is Ad2d, and Eastgate check/called (flop) -> check/fold (turn). I don't know; can I really believe that he has that hand?

I agree that Dwan puts each player on the exact hand they had, but Barry knows that Dwan knows what Barry has, & Barry obviously doesn't know where Dwan is, but should realize that with a $100K bet, there's a good possibility that Dwan's bet will force him into folding. That's why I call there. Perhaps use the strategy: figure out what your opponent wants you do & surprise them by doing the opposite.

I'm sure it's a poor analysis, but I'm curious about your comment. Also, I emailed you asking for analysis on hand histories / commentary on trips vs. boats or trips vs. trips w/better kicker. Again, GREAT post.

High regards.

Lastly, check out this post for the entire recap:
http://hardboiledpoker.blogspot.com/2009/03/toms-adventures-in-durrrrland.html

spritpot said...

Greenstein says in his podcast that he probably should have raised a little more. This might be true, but he probably has a standard raise size he was using all game long and didn't want to deviate from it, which I think is a good strategy.

Limping is probably not a good strategy. It probably still turns out to be an 8-way pot in that case, or perhaps somebody raises, Barry re-raises and gets a fold. This way he would probably maximize his chances of winning the hand, but minimize his expected value from the hand (because all the pots he wins are so small). Or maybe someone calls him with a big implied odds hand, knowing exactly what he has. This is not a situation you want to be in, very deep, out of position, with your opponent knowing exactly what your cards are (this is the situation he ended up with on the flop).

I'm pretty sure durrrr is loose enough to have much more than A2s in his range for value. At least 25s,24s,23s, and K2s are there at least some of the time, and perhaps even A2o (he's obviously not goign to get 300bbs in on an A-high flop in that case).

Concerning TT, I'm not sure. It seemed like Barry was more focused on A2s in his radio commentary, but I would definitely not be surprised to see durrrr flat call with TT pre-flop. That would definitely be the standard play with TT vs. a tight player's UTG raise.

Thanks for the link to the other post.

-bruechips

The Poker Meister said...

I saw the link to the Greenstein commentary on the other post & will listen to it when I get home tonight.

Either way, this was a helluva interesting hand. I read your blog religiously to try to consume any and all information I can get. I think it has definitely made me a better player. Again, thanks for the great analysis.

Gnome said...

Catching up on HSP. Negreanu sure is sucking it up, huh? All those open limps with crappy hands are terrible.

The Poker Meister said...

Brue,

Funny - I'm listening to the audio post from Barry. I got part of it right, about the A2. Interesting... It's total crap that he's holding out for a possible A though. Doesn't he think that other people are calling ahead of him with an ace? AT LEAST one person - out of the 7 callers - is calling there with an ace. Utter crap. Either he's ahead or he's not. His flop call is useless.

Anonymous said...

Really good post! I agree with your assessment. How close do you think Barry was to calling the turn there? Would he have been calling all-in?

I have to fault Peter and Barry in a big way for the flop play. I was sure Eastgate was calling to disguise the strength of his hand to jam turn or something. I guess it's easy for durrrr to show up there with A-2 but still, can't play durrr and give him credit for the nuts every time he shows some aggression.

Bought in for way too much, opened himself up for getting out-played like this. he buys in for 200k he doubles with his trip sixes and prolly gets it in here too.

One of our guys talked to Eastgate about it and he's happy with the way he played it.

http://www.pokerlistings.com/eastgate-takes-on-durrrr-for-high-stakes-37908

not sure if I agree 100% but he seems to be on the right track with identifying the mistakes he made.