Playing Out of Position 2

First of all, many thanks to Fuel and Gnome for mentioning us in recent posts. Arways nice to get some rove from excerrent prayers. I want to kind of respond to Gnome's recent post on check-raising, which was in turn a response to my earlier posts on check-raising.

First, I agree with Gnome that you don't have many weapons out of position, but I think this is more an argument for avoiding playing out of position as much as possible, for instance by not defending your blinds as much, than it is a case for employing all of the weapons you have. But I disagree that the call is not a "weapon". Often against an aggressive player, calling down somewhat light is much better than check-raising. You might lose less if you are behind, win more if you are ahead, and are perhaps less likely to get bluffed off the best hand, if your opponent is able to read your check-raise as an information bet.

So first let's look at hand number 1 here, vs. a TAG, emphasis on the T:


Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $303
UTG: $200
UTG+1: $200
UTG+2: $158
MP1: $177.75
MP2: $95.15
CO: $177.15
BTN: $209
Hero (SB): $215

Pre-Flop: dealt to Hero (SB)
3 folds, MP1 calls $2, 2 folds, BTN raises to $10, Hero calls $9, BB folds, MP1 calls $8 (There's definitely an argument to be made for re-raising before the flop. But I thought the button was pretty tight, and my re-raise would be basically a raise for information, since if he puts more money into the pot, I'm probably crushed.)

Flop: ($32) (3 Players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, BTN bets $16, Hero calls $16, MP1 folds (OK, here's a classic situation. There is NO REASON to check-raise here. I am either way ahead, with my opponent drawing to 6 outs or fewer, or way behind, and I need a J to catch up. However I could be slowplaying a 9 or deuces full, so I doubt that he will be betting three streets with aces or kings. I think I can check-call two bets, get value out of his ace-high hands, and avoid having to fold if I check-raise and he shoves over the top)

Turn: ($64) (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks (This card is pretty much the definition of a blank. Him checking behind doesn't necessarily mean I have the best hand. He could be checking behind a bigger overpair for pot control)

River: ($64) (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks (I COULD make an argument for check-raising big if he bets this card to try and get him to fold a bigger overpair. But check-calling a $50 bet is not bad either, as he might be making a last stab at the pot with A-high, even though I think the 8s would be a pretty bad card for him to do that on).

Results: $64 Pot ($3 Rake)
BTN showed (a pair of Nines) and LOST (-$26 NET)
Hero showed (two pair, Jacks and Nines) and WON $61 (+$35 NET)

OK, so I managed to take that one down. Granted, if I had called 55 on the river and he flipped pocket eights, I probably wouldn't be posting this. That's kind of the risk you take when you try to control pot size with a hand like a weak overpair. But I think that's better than check-raise-folding the flop, certainly better than check-raise-calling the flop vs. this villain.

Here's a different hand, this time where I was the pre-flop raiser and I got called behind. I've been experimenting with this kind of line more recently:

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (CO): $326.60
BTN: $190
SB: $196.80
BB: $200
UTG: $315.75
UTG+1: $130
MP1: $199
MP2: $128.15

Pre-Flop: dealt to Hero (CO)
4 folds, Hero raises to $8, BTN calls $8, 2 folds (Standard)

Flop: ($19) (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $19, Hero calls $19 (There are very few hands that will put in much more money when I bet that I can beat. The best hand I can beat is QJ. He could call once with 77-JJ. 87 does make a straight draw. But if he calls behind on the frop, am I going to check-raise the turn? Fire a second barrel? I think I'd rather check-call here, to try and induce a bluff out of a hand that's drawing close to dead, which is what he probably has, but which he'll probably fold if I bet. Again, it doesn't matter for betting that I'm probably way ahead. It matters that I'm probably ahead CONDITIONAL on him calling or raising)

Turn: ($57) (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $22, Hero calls $22 (Not a great card, QT now ahead, JT, KJ, AT, AJ pick up some outs, but I will play it safe still. I don't really see much point in raising given this bet and these stack sizes. I could raise to price out the straight draw, but then I'm almost committed if the villain shoves, and I will probably be drawing extremely thin to dead if I call. If he does have KJ, he gets there with an A or a 9. An A isn't going to cost me much. A 9 I might pay him off. But if a K comes I might get some more money from him.)

River: ($101) (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks (Total blank, I'm check calling again.)

Results: $101 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed (two pair, Queens and Fives) and WON $98 (+$49 NET)
BTN showed (a pair of Fives) and LOST (-$49 NET)

The reason these hands are good for check-calling is that I'm probably winning given just my cards and the board and the fact that my opponent bets when checked to, but if I bet and get called or raised, there's a good chance that my hand is toast. In these situations, check-calling is a good "weapon" for extracting value out of worse hands.

As I said in my first post on check-raising, I think check-raising the turn is often a good play, but on the flop it rarely is. These two hands are good examples. There's no point in check-raising the flop on either one. In the first hand, I could see check-shoving the river as a bluff, and in the second hand, check-raising the turn for value would be OK, but not my favorite play.

You can also see a weakness of "information betting". Even if the information you get is completely accurate - that is, you never get 3b bruffed - and your opponent WOULD have extracted more value from you by three-barreling a better hand, you MISS value from worse hands by not allowing them to bruff on rater streets.

-BRUECHIPS